Author Topic: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider  (Read 1103 times)

Offline number17

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Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« on: July 10, 2010, 08:39:52 AM »
What the hell are we waiting for? Over the past month we are the worst team in the majors and it's not going to get any better. We have losers like Molina, Green, Wise and McDonald filling out the roster and quasi-tradeable assets in the lineup with guys like Overbay and Buck.

Why is AA sitting on his hands? Why not rebuild RIGHT NOW? Arencibia and Wallace are mashing (Brett must be healthy now) and Snider is doing fine at AA--why do the Blue Jays have to do this to us? Why would I pay money to see a bullcrap lineup like the one trotted out last night? Molina DH'ing? What a joke. Wise, McDonald as late-innings subs? Yawn. Green didn't even play is a pathetic blowout.

Get off your ass, Alex.

Online Blacksheep

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 10:38:38 AM »
I think many of us (well I for damn sure do) feel this way. Except I wanted the season to start with our prospects up. I have no idea what the philosophy was behind running with all the burnout old vets you mentioned (I realize not all are statistically awful, but they are not our future)? Whatever the reason was, that reason is now over. I suspect and hope that AA will be making some major trades at the deadline, Bautista and Buck will hopefully go as they are sell high guys, the rest, well, might be tough to pawn off, but they shouldn't really be there blocking the spots of our future. Problem is, Cito likes vets, he will keep playing them if they are there, so they need to be traded/released or we have to wait till next year when Cito is gone, because he is a huge part of the problem.

I have Travis Snider on my fantasy team, let me copy the note full of Cito's dumb comments below to illustrate this point.

"Fri, Jul 9 -

Snider (wrist) continues to hit well in his rehab assignment and could rejoin the Jays immediately after the All-Star break, the team's official site reports.

Recommendation: The original plan was for Snider to return at some point shortly after the All-Star break but his performance (.375 in eight games, including a .571 average in three games at Double-A) might have the Jays re-thinking their plans. "Right now, we've got him scheduled to come back later," manager Cito Gaston said. "He's swinging the bat really well. [General manager Alex Anthopoulos] and I haven't talked about it, but we had it mapped out to go past the All-Star break. We might change our minds. We might leave him down there or we might bring him up when the second half starts."

Yeah, they had it "mapped out" to leave him down there past the All Star break  :-\
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Offline gosensgo101

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 11:59:17 AM »
I'm fine with leaving Arencibia and Wallace in the minors for now, but your goal should be to get your major league talent back to the major leagues as soon as possible. Snider should already be back in Toronto, but leaving him down past the All-Star break would just be a travesty.

I like how Cito says that he's swinging the bat well, which has somehow led to the Jays thinking he needs more time in the minors.  ???

Offline djfreebodyremix

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »
why waste one of their options if you aren't sure if they are gonna stick around for a while at the big league level. its not like we don't have guys at their position who can't play. Buck is a all-star and you got Lyle at 1st base who can play decent defense. lyle's contract is up this year so why not have him develop at AAA for the rest of the year, save option year, and see if he can stick next year.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 12:53:27 AM by djfreebodyremix »

Offline London Knights

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 08:30:04 PM »
And last year Arencibia looked like crap in AAA.  Rushing prospects because you like to bold "wake up" messages isn't how you build a winner.

Offline number17

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 06:48:20 AM »
Arencibia hit two more home runs last night--he now has 25, which leads the entire minor leagues and is more than anyone in the majors--you'll also note that his splits are amazing and that he has hit as well or better on the road as at home.

Not bringing him up is idiotic. "Wasting one of his options"? What are you talking about? It's well past the time he would lose a year of arbitration and you can send guys up and down as many times as you want in their first 5 years. C'mon, why do you have to defend every boring decision the Jays make.

Oh yeah, Wallace 1-3, with a 3B and an RBI in the same game (2nd of a double-header) as JP.

Of 25 1B that qualify for the OPS race, Overbay is 21st. He's 25th in RBIs. Good call, he's doing just fine, except compared to everyone else in either league.

Offline Krylian

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 09:07:06 AM »
What difference does it make whether they're called up now or in September...

Buck's an All-Star.  It would be moronic to sit him and hurt his value.  AA will be getting offers for Buck closer to the deadline.

Cito won't even pinch hit for Overbay...you think he's gonna bench him for Wallace?  Besides, AA will be trying to move Overbay also.

Snider will be up soon...and Bausista should be moved to third to get rid of E5.  Although it would be unfortunate to lose Bautista's arm from RF.

Bottom line.....this is a rebuild.  Have some damn patience.  You sound like a Leafs fan.

Offline number17

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 02:47:03 PM »
How are you rebuilding when washed up players like Overbay play day in and day out?

What's the difference between now and September? Excitement. Development. A reason to watch every game. Right now this team is boring as crap and it's because we're hanging on to these over-the-hill guys too long. Rebuilding is done with young players at the highest level, which we have 3 wasting time in the minors.

Oh yeah, hockey sucks, I haven't watched a game since I was a little kid, so please spare me the Leaves-comparisons. (yes, Leaves)

Offline Kelekin

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 04:46:58 PM »
I have to go with Krylian on this.  I've seen way too many prospects rushed through AAA, and since we're not going to be genuinely competitive for 3-4 years, I'm fine with them not being up.  I do think Buck will get traded and Arencibia will be brought up, simply because Arencibia does deserve it and Jeroloman even more so is deserving of being in AAA.  Bautista -hopefully- gets traded, and Wallace doesn't even deserve a call-up so please don't start with that just because you know the guy's a big time prospect. 

Every one of our AA outfielders deserves to be in AAA too.  So who knows what they're doing and I'm willing to let July play out.  The trades have only just begun.

Offline Krylian

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 08:13:46 PM »
How are you rebuilding when washed up players like Overbay play day in and day out?

What's the difference between now and September? Excitement. Development. A reason to watch every game. Right now this team is boring as crap and it's because we're hanging on to these over-the-hill guys too long. Rebuilding is done with young players at the highest level, which we have 3 wasting time in the minors.

Oh yeah, hockey sucks, I haven't watched a game since I was a little kid, so please spare me the Leaves-comparisons. (yes, Leaves)

You're just an angry person aren't you?

The difference between now and September is that the players that the prospects are going to replace are still here...and their value is not going to hold if they're on the bench in place of youngsters.

The highest return will come at the deadline so there should be no rush to move them now.

By the way, it's Leafs.  Thanks for coming out though.

Offline djfreebodyremix

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 01:03:25 PM »
Arencibia hit two more home runs last night--he now has 25, which leads the entire minor leagues and is more than anyone in the majors--you'll also note that his splits are amazing and that he has hit as well or better on the road as at home.

Not bringing him up is idiotic. "Wasting one of his options"? What are you talking about? It's well past the time he would lose a year of arbitration and you can send guys up and down as many times as you want in their first 5 years. C'mon, why do you have to defend every boring decision the Jays make.

Oh yeah, Wallace 1-3, with a 3B and an RBI in the same game (2nd of a double-header) as JP.

Of 25 1B that qualify for the OPS race, Overbay is 21st. He's 25th in RBIs. Good call, he's doing just fine, except compared to everyone else in either league.

options doesn't have to do with being able to send them down without going through waivers. it also has to do with when they can hit FA and be UFA. you can control their salaries better if you don't bring them up early

Offline Dontavian

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 01:06:18 PM »
options doesn't have to do with being able to send them down without going through waivers. it also has to do with when they can hit FA and be UFA. you can control their salaries better if you don't bring them up early

I could be wrong, but I believe that since we have passed a certain date (June 1 or something) the free agency impact on bringing a player up from now until the end of the season is the same. If that's the case, there's no reason to hold off for free agency purposes.

I agree with the people who say let the trade deadline play out. If the same guys are all playing a month from now then I'll be upset.

Offline corpusse

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 01:29:16 PM »
options doesn't have to do with being able to send them down without going through waivers. it also has to do with when they can hit FA and be UFA. you can control their salaries better if you don't bring them up early

What is a UFA?  FA = free agent?

Options DO have to do with being able to send them up and down, if you can without passing them through waivers they have options meaning they can play at the major league level or you can send them on a minor league assignment.  John Olerud had options remaining when he retired since he never played in the minors other then his rehab assignment towards the end of his career. 

from wikipedia which is straight forward enough, I believe you can find more on mlbpa

"Options

If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons (in which he spent 20 or more total days of service in the minors), he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers. If a major league player is ineligible for free agency and "has options" remaining, his team may option him to a minor league team without consequence. This is usually what is meant when players are "sent down" to the minors. Likewise, when a player on the 40-man roster is added to the active major league roster, he is "called up" to the majors."

I could be wrong, but I believe that since we have passed a certain date (June 1 or something) the free agency impact on bringing a player up from now until the end of the season is the same. If that's the case, there's no reason to hold off for free agency purposes.

I agree with the people who say let the trade deadline play out. If the same guys are all playing a month from now then I'll be upset.

If a player is called up about 2 weeks into a season and they stays at the major league level for the entire year and the following 5 he will not have enough service time to reach 6 years thus free agency.  The actual number will vary year to year as the first day of the season is when the first game is played and it does not have to be that team playing.  Usually these days the season starts with a single sunday night game and that is when day one of service time starts.

One year = 172 days minimum time spent on active roster or major league DL ect.  The season is slightly longer then 172 days that is why you must wait about 2 weeks to ensure player is not on active roster for 172 days thus he will not reach 1 year service in his first year nor will he reach 6.00 years after 6 seasons meaning the team will control his rights for another year.

After 3.00 years service time a players salary is decided by arbitration.  Before that they can simply renew the contract at whatever they want.  In addition to players with 3 years service time or more, the top 17% of players with 2 years + service time and with at least one day on the active roster the year before achieve "super 2 status".  These players get 4 years of arbitration instead of 3.  The date is usually some time around june when it is safe to call someone up and they cannot reach super 2 status.  Despite the fact we hear more and more about this in recent years I don't believe the date has been pushed back as a result of this.

To sum it up :

If you want to control a player for 7 seasons not 6 you wait 2 weeks to call him up.  You will get the player for 3 of those seasons at the salary of your choosing and 4 arbitration years.  By waiting the 2 weeks he will not have 6 years service time after the 6 seasons thus you get him under control for a whole extra year.

If you want to control a player for 4 years cheap + 3 years arbitration you wait until the second or 3rd week of june and then call them up.  Once this deadline passes there is no difference in salary in calling up a player the day after or the last day of the season other then for those days on the active roster their minor league contract becomes a major league contract so they would earn a prorated portion of the MLB minimum salary and not whatever their minor league salary was. 



Offline Kelekin

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 02:02:35 PM »
UFA = hockey lingo, of course.

Offline number17

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 07:29:21 AM »
Of course I'm angry with the Jays, how can you not be? We're way out of the playoff race for the 16th straight year with no end in sight . . . except for these three young players who we have to hope come up and can both hit for power and in clutch situations. Other than that, we've got a solid young starting staff, but the '10 Jays are boring as hell. I love baseball, but find myself watching practically any other team just because of the "everyone swing for the fences" style of Cito's team. (love the Yunel move, by the way--dump the old for the new every time; the same should be done with Downs, Buck, Frasor, Gregg and Overpay and anyone else someone will take)

I just want something good to happen in Toronto sports, is that too much to ask?

Offline Hankdillon

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 09:10:19 AM »
Of course I'm angry with the Jays, how can you not be? We're way out of the playoff race for the 16th 17th straight year with no end in sight . . .

Fixed.
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Offline number17

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2010, 07:06:38 AM »
Well, there were no playoffs in 1994, so even though we were bad that year too, I didn't count it.

Offline Hankdillon

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2010, 07:25:35 AM »
Well, there were no playoffs in 1994, so even though we were bad that year too, I didn't count it.

Ah, good point.
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Offline blue_metal

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Re: Wallace, Arencibia and Snider
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2010, 07:43:32 AM »
Developing players does not mean throwing them in the MLB level and waiting for them to get crushed.  They are doing fine sure, but are they doing fine with flawed defence, flawed swings and inferior athletic ability when compared to MLB players?  If so, they need to continue to develop in the minor leagues and not be thrown into the MLB where teams will adapt quickly and cause them to suck and to lose confidence.  This is the future of the Jays and there is no point in ruining our future to try for the slimmest of playoff spots. 

The Jays are not a playoff team this year and the organization knows it.  Let the kids develop, let the team flounder and let us get another decent first round draft position to make our future even brighter.
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